Curse

Antheus · Apr 26, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott42

From what I can tell by all the changes made every effort has been made to stop aggressive farming particularly bots.

But why is it that if you play the game solo, the items dropped are far better than if you work in a team and kill the same creatures, does that not encourage farming? Would it not be better to increase drops for full party’s and maybe even better for balanced party’s using diverse range of heroes? Then you would just have full party’s farming all the time, is this bad?

If you try to form a team to go play in Underworld you’re stuck with the choice of let me see I need a Trapper ranger or a Invincible monk to go down with a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer or even a Barage Ranger. If you suggest going to Underworld with a full party your laughed at because you receive very little for your efforts. But if I go down in a pair kill everything this way I actually pick up good items and get what you would expect for a such an elite area is this fair?

Am I alone in these thoughts?

Problem is not just the farming, it's about goals.

Majority has completed the UW/FoW quests. There's nothing of interest there anymore. Those that stay, are there for farming (FoW armor, money, mods).

Increasing attractiveness of missions would help in getting people to do missions, but farmers would still be there.

If loot were changed, people would just change their focus for team builds. You'd still have FotM. Look at SF.

Your true question here is clash of goals. Farmers care about profit. Full group or solo makes no difference. 55/SS or 5/4/3-man oro is the same. It does nothing to help people who do not want to farm.

What would be considerably better than nerfing the solo or "power" farming, would be adding different means of acquiring gold/items. Make them sure quest rewards, or something similar.
But never underestimate the greed. People will (no matter what) go for maximum profit. There just is no utopian solution, since any method can and will be abused.

GW has loot based economy. It doesn't matter how you get to loot, it just comes to finding optimal method between time and effort. Besides, majority of people in MMOs prefer to solo by a wide margin. Forced grouping is generally one of the worst and most hated ideas, which generates a lot of inter-personal conflict (cloudsong, leeroy, too many onyxia stories to count), where as in solo gameplay, it can be easily tuned around individual people without outside interference.

Ken Dei · Apr 26, 2006, 09:15 PM // 21:15

"Signet of Massve Approval"

Loots need to be scaleable.

soloer, gets the normal drops.
2 people: 2x gold piece sizes, +2% chance for Purple/Gold item.
3 people: 3x gold piece sizes, +4% chance for Purple/Gold item.
4 people: 4x gold piece sizes, +6% chance for Purple/Gold item.
5 people: 6x gold piece sizes, +9% chance for Purple/Gold item.
6 people: 8x gold piece sizes, +12% chance for Purple/Gold item.
7 people: 10x gold piece sizes, +15% chance for Purple/Gold item.
8 people: 12x gold piece sizes, +18% chance for Purple/Gold item.

Not only that, there should be a sub-code that keeps track of who got what blue/purple/gold items. As an item drops, it's "ticked" off off for that player until all players have gotten at least 1 blue and 1 purple item.

That way, as long as you take the time to kill stuff instead of run past it, you have a better chance of getting a decent item.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 26, 2006, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Well put Scott. What you have said is an example of the point I have been trying to make. The recent update being further proof. Due to bots, sweatshop farmers and all other repetitive solo and pair farming anet puts out these stupid nerfing updates that make it less profitable for the farmers but has the side affect of making it less profitable for those that go and do the quests and missions in groups. Nothing solved since solo farmers are still able to earn 8 times the amount of loot someone in a full party will earn in a given amount of time.

Quote:

Majority has completed the UW/FoW quests. There's nothing of interest there anymore. Those that stay, are there for farming (FoW armor, money, mods).

The repeatable areas that anet have taken the time to put into the game are there for a reason. Anet is against repetitive farming due to it's negetive impact on the game's economy and the recent updates is proof of this. They could have made those areas one shot deals like all the other quests but they knew that people would finish everything in the game and get bored and leave. So they added repeatable quests like the UW, FoW, and Tombs to allow those that are done to continue playing untill new content is released.

Quote:

Your true question here is clash of goals. Farmers care about profit. Full group or solo makes no difference. 55/SS or 5/4/3-man oro is the same. It does nothing to help people who do not want to farm.

The SF farming that is done in the 5 man has somewhat been nerfed now so it was clear that anet wasn't for it. But even when it was possible it wasn't bad because it only allowed people to earn loot twice as fast as those in full groups instead of the eight times solos can earn. Due to gold being divided by the number of people in the party and an individual player having a 1 in n (n being the number of people in your party) chance of getting loot (other than gold) dropped for them.

Quote:

I'm not saying drops should be identical whether you solo farm or go for full groups. If you can successfully solo farm areas you deserve your reward.

True. If you have what it takes to handle high level mobs solo then maybe you should be rewarded a little more. As it stands right now though is that soloers get eight times the loot someone in a full party gets and that shouldn't be. Maybe if the enemies dropped an item it dropped one for each person in any party but if actual gold is dropped it is still split between the party. That way those skilled enough to go on their own get rewarded by getting 100% of the gold when dropped by the enemy.

Maria The Princess · Apr 27, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

WHENEVER I NEED CASH I GO SOLO....but if farming in a group would be as rewardig as solo i would be farming only with my guild groups, which is more fun then standing and doin protective spirit + heal breese over and over... until nitamare shows up! then its very fun and exciting cuz theres a third skill i can use!!!!!

i would still do solo sometimes, but mostly for the sport of it, and ofcurse not as much

Undivine · Apr 27, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Well spoken Scott.

Personally I've always liked Hunter Sparrow's idea of making the drops even. Note that it doesn't neccessarily have to be 1 in 8 chance either. They could make it so that each member in a group of 8 has a 1 in 5 chance of getting a drop. ANet has the power to decide exactly how much the monsters output, and this would give them greater control of the economy, while still keeping it player-based.

See, I don't neccessarily want a group of 8. I honestly find it easier to sometimes just do 5 or 6 people. Sometimes it isn't easier, but it's simply a lot more fun. I like having all the different options to play. Close-nit group of friends in a 5-man team to Tombs, 8-man group of random strangers doing a mission, so-on so forth. So I'm not terribly keen on rewarding larger parties, making people feel like they need another person.

I would definately prefer our goods handed to us in the form of quest rewards, and I've been making that suggestion for a while now. Even if people want to "farm" a quest, at least those who simply want to do the quest for enjoyment can get a group for it. Now that they've taken care of that sodding gear trick, maybe I can finally get some of those Sorrow's Furnace quests done. We'll see.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 27, 2006, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Thank you Undivine. However Anet in all their wisdom have spoken once again with they're latest updates. Two of my favorites that I can't wait to test out is 1. Gold armor only give sup runes, purple only gives majors and blue only give minors.
2. Fixed a bug that dramatically decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot in explorable areas.

Rumor has it though that your odds improve with the more people you have in your party when it comes to rare drops dropping. Don't know if true but if it is I can only say three things.

HA HA HA

Sundering is now 20/20 instead of 10/10. I think I might try and get one for my horn bow to go with the 10% always.

Scott42 · Apr 27, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

So it would seem my suggestions have already been addressed to some degree with this update I’m uncertain of this I shall look into it further. I couldn’t see any direct mention of, if you like equal rights for people farming solo or working as a team.

After reading your discussions your right it would be unfair to force you to make a large party so you are still open to explore small party combinations for the added complexity of it. So really what needs to happen is equality for all party sizes and loot gained instead of being obligated to use a particular method for the best results.

Everyone has to admit it leaves you feeling unhappy when you finish a run in FoW after 3 hours of butchering bad guys to walk away with maybe 1 Shard for your armour when you require 100+ not to mention the Ecto you still need to acquire.

Well here’s hoping its better now with the update

thanks for all the awesome feedback people and here’s hoping developers are reading your comments earnestly.

Stockholm · Apr 27, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

You FARM Hunter? Don't exploite the game, buy from the trader so the economy stays stable.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 27, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

You FARM Hunter? Don't exploite the game, buy from the trader so the economy stays stable.

I don't farm. Only did some to test out the updates and see if the unmentioned updates were true. Yes they are. Don't have to farm. You know how many gold armors I have found just playing the game, going through every mission and quest? Quite a few but most turned out to be major runes. With those two updates my w/e that I am currently playing through every mission and quest has a much better chance at finding superior vigor and absorbtion now. That what I was talking about with 'test out'.

quickmonty · Apr 27, 2006, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Keep in mind that the gold=superior fix doesn't mean more superiors overall. They could keep the number of total superior drops the same and you would just see a lot less golds.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 27, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Go to their website. It specifically state that they plan to increase the rate at which vigor and absorbtion drops.

Hildi · Apr 27, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

The SF farming that is done in the 5 man has somewhat been nerfed now so it was clear that anet wasn't for it.

Anet didn't nerf the SF farm b/c they didn't like it, it was nerfed b/c Ritualist carry stuff and during the preview they were drawing all the aggro b/c of it, so they fixed the attack item aggro, thus as a side affect, no more gear trick in SF.

Zhou Feng · Apr 27, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott42

From what I can tell by all the changes made every effort has been made to stop aggressive farming particularly bots.

But why is it that if you play the game solo, the items dropped are far better than if you work in a team and kill the same creatures, does that not encourage farming? Would it not be better to increase drops for full party’s and maybe even better for balanced party’s using diverse range of heroes? Then you would just have full party’s farming all the time, is this bad?

If you try to form a team to go play in Underworld you’re stuck with the choice of let me see I need a Trapper ranger or a Invincible monk to go down with a Spiteful Spirit Necromancer or even a Barage Ranger. If you suggest going to Underworld with a full party your laughed at because you receive very little for your efforts. But if I go down in a pair kill everything this way I actually pick up good items and get what you would expect for a such an elite area is this fair?

Am I alone in these thoughts?

This has been spoken before. First of all I dont really believe there is some sort of botting. If it is then it has to be some sort of superior bot... specially if its an UW Farm Bot.

Solo Farming is quite a task upon itself. Many people believe it is a very simple thing. It might be but when it comes down to UW it isnt a very "simple" thing do to the amount of enemies who can remove all your enchantments and/or interrupt you.

Solo Farming is not as rewarding as you might make it out to be. However it would seem this way because after all, the drops are yours and no ones else.

I believe Team Farming should gain a bonus for rewards so it is a more viable thing.

Questing should also be more rewarding as it has been stated time and time by quite a few of the forumers.

I was thinking that perhaps a good idea would be to rotate value of items in diffrent markets, treating them like real life markets. So for example what is valued in Kryta would be worth scat in Ascalon. Also perhaps every certain time the Market (as a whole) could rebalance itself (To make it seem that NPC's are also buying/selling/trading)

Scott42 · Apr 27, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhou Feng

This has been spoken before. First of all I don’t really believe there is some sort of botting. If it is then it has to be some sort of superior bot... specially if its an UW Farm Bot.

Solo Farming is quite a task upon itself. Many people believe it is a very simple thing. It might be but when it comes down to UW it isnt a very "simple" thing do to the amount of enemies who can remove all your enchantments and/or interrupt you.

Solo Farming is not as rewarding as you might make it out to be. However it would seem this way because after all, the drops are yours and no ones else.

I'm sorry I have to disagree with you there Zhou I for one became very frustraited with the UW FoW situation because particularly I would like to obtain my FoW armour. I have since learned how to farm with only two people and I am now well over half way to my first set the farming techniques used are more difficult in a way but I do not enjoy this type of game play. I would like to see it so I do not have to resort to these methods. It is far far more rewarding going in a smaller party and your comment that "everything is yours" this rate of drop should be the similar for the individual using any party size in my opinion. I do understand why it is why it is, but I feel this is a dated notion.

Guild Wars greatest achievement is the level of team orientation that can be seen, for a role playing game to be able to have hero's that go into battle and are set so they don’t actually deal any damage and are there to support the damage dealers using a wide range of healing, wards, protections, interruptions and the list goes on. For them to encourage farming by making it so appealing by making it so much more profitable and team oriented nearly to the point it’s a waste of time they are losing this element to people the are moving to appeal of solo farming. Then they try to stop solo farming by adjusting areas so they can no longer be solo farmed they are not adressing the issue this way.

quickmonty · Apr 27, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

Go to their website. It specifically state that they plan to increase the rate at which vigor and absorbtion drops.

I know that

Been to their website. Posted links to it in a couple of my posts. Preaching to the choir here.

That is just 2 of many (36?) possible superiors. I was refering to the fact that many are going to think "Oh wow! All golds are superiors. I'll be getting a lot more superior drops!" You may get more vigors and absorbtions but I think the overall rate of superior drops will be the same. Just a lot fewer golds now.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 27, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

RUNES

* Increased probability of finding Superior Vigor and Superior Absorption runes.
* Changed new rare (gold) armor to only provide superior (gold) runes.
* Changed new uncommon (purple) armor to only provide major (purple) runes.
* As always, you must use an expert or superior salvage kit to extract a rune from armor. These changes will not affect loot that dropped prior to this update.

MISCELLANEOUS

* Fixed a bug that dramatically decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot in explorable areas.

With that it will be easier to find a superior absorbtion and vigor through the course of the game. However just because they said they fixed a bug that decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot doesn't mean they didn't nerf the ettins. It just means that when you take a character through the game you have a much better chance at getting rare stuff without having to farm for it.

Has anyone tested the trolls yet since the update? My guess is that there will only be a small change and that being since alot of the people who farm there have moved on the cantha. With less people farming the area, the drops will be a little better. What explorable areas are they talking about? All of them or certain ones that were experiencing this bug.

quickmonty · Apr 27, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

* Fixed a bug that dramatically decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot in explorable areas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

With that it will be easier to find a superior absorbtion and vigor through the course of the game. However just because they said they fixed a bug that decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot doesn't mean they didn't nerf the ettins. It just means that when you take a character through the game you have a much better chance at getting rare stuff without having to farm for it.

Has anyone tested the trolls yet since the update? My guess is that there will only be a small change and that being since alot of the people who farm there have moved on the cantha. With less people farming the area, the drops will be a little better. What explorable areas are they talking about? All of them or certain ones that were experiencing this bug.

What they meant was this. When they removed the Luxon and Kurzick camps they inadvertantly caused a bug that reduced uncommon and rare drops (mostly in NKP and Nebo). Then they patched it so the former drops were restored. They also increased the chance of finding a superior vigor or absorbtion. The ettin nerf was the bug that they created and then fixed. Ask any ettin farmer.

Hunter Sharparrow · Apr 27, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Well I've already tested this myself three different times today. An hour each time. Now it could be that I just had crap luck but either way it doesn't matter. In fact I hope what your saying is true. Then the rare will be even less rare and the value will decrease even further since those that play the game will be able to find them and not just those that farm. So while the farmers sell their good runes anet makes an update that increases the rate at which they give them away. Kinda takes the buiseness away from the farmers and those that prefer not to farm don't have to if they are to find one for themself. Any way you look at it, it is still a farm nerf along with the "gear" exploit in SF that got fixed.

quickmonty · Apr 27, 2006, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stockholm

You FARM Hunter? Don't exploite the game, buy from the trader so the economy stays stable.

He doesn't farm .... he justs tests ..... three hours so far today. I don't spend that much time when I farm!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

Well I've already tested this myself three different times today. An hour each time.

ROFLMAO!

Zhou Feng · Apr 27, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Sharparrow

Thank you Undivine. However Anet in all their wisdom have spoken once again with they're latest updates. Two of my favorites that I can't wait to test out is 1. Gold armor only give sup runes, purple only gives majors and blue only give minors.
2. Fixed a bug that dramatically decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot in explorable areas.

Rumor has it though that your odds improve with the more people you have in your party when it comes to rare drops dropping. Don't know if true but if it is I can only say three things.

HA HA HA

Sundering is now 20/20 instead of 10/10. I think I might try and get one for my horn bow to go with the 10% always.

Um Hunter I believe 2 just means that there was a bug that decreased the decreased the chance of finding uncommon and rare loot in explorable areas, which means solo farmers still get rewarded more

This farming issue might never be comepletly solved, I have time again said that it is better to regulate it by changing values of items in Merchants to reflect NPCs also buying/trading/selling. Also making more repeatable quests and making the current ones give out random uncommon to rare rewards so everytime you complete said Quests. And make them hard/harder and last longer and maybe require diffrent amounts of team members with the eight members being hard really hard quests that have just as good rewards.

Still farming should be allowed but regulated so it wont mess up the economy. Im also up with the idea that additional team members increase chances of drops but above 4 and less then 7 so:
(The following is ficticious data

)
Team Members % Bonus Chance for Uncommon/Rare
1 4%/3%
2 4%/3%
3 5%/4%
4 5%/4%
5 5%/5%
6 6%/5%
7 6%/6%
8 7%/6%

So you dont actually "get rewarded" for having more people on the team, just not overtly unrewarded either.